Saturday, December 6, 2008

Sarah, the paranoid dark skinned girl.

Over on Sahara's Interracial Love and Spice blog, Sarah again goes into the whole colorism rant and seems to think that by posting a group of handpicked photos, she can show how white men appreciate dark skinned women more than black men.

Now for a reality check. Anyone can handpick photos. I can do that. First of all, lets look at a photo what white men overwhelmingly date and marry.

Now lets give her a more balanced view of what black men are dating and marrying.
Warren G., Warren G.'s wife and a friend below:

And I could go on. It's just to easy exposing this nonsense for what it is. NONSENSE. I think that some sistas must come to the realization that they are the reason why they cannot get dates, boyfriends, husbands, etc., not some imaginary injustice directed toward them.


Sasha said...

This is true...anyone can post photos, especially with the advancement of technology.

However, let's be real here for a a Black woman (and I'm sure you can agree), I know how the Black community deals with color complex issues. It's sad to say, but dark skinned Black women are at the lowest in our community...most Black men, especially dark skinned ones, don't wish to date dark skinned Black women. In the media/tv/etc., the major representation of Black women are light skinned with long, weave...that's the type of woman most Black men want, and you can't tell me anything different.

RainaHavock said...

Now Sasha I would have to disagree with you. True the media once to protray that it's light skin girls who are most preferred but if this was the case then anyone darker than Halle Berry wouldn't even have dreams of marrying someone inside there race. You can't just say most black men prefer light skin I can look in my own community and see that is not true. Also you can't not speak for most black men because that is just not true.

Sasha said...

I'm not understanding the first half about the media...but to think most Black men don't prefer light skinned women is amusing to me...

...I too can look at my community and communities across the Americas, Latin America, etc., and I can say that most Black men do prefer light skinned women (it doesn't take much to see this) inform me otherwise is false(and amusing, again). This goes back to the slavery era, when the divide between the field and house slave was introduced...this lead to the ideology of being light was better. Over time, this mentality was deeply rooted and embeded into the mentality of many Blacks, especially Black men who viewd the White woman as a prize. Since he couldn't have a White woman (in fear of being an Emmit Till), he got the next best thing...a light skinned woman. This is still prevalent in our society.

If you wish, you might want to read upon some litterature and research to get a better understanding, via:

*Skin-Deep: How Race and Complexion Matter In The "Color Blind" Era
*Don't Play In The Sun: One Woman's Journey Through The Color Complex
*Race, Gender, And The Politics of Skin Tone
*The Practical Skeptic: Core Concepts in Sociology

Also, there are a plethora of research articles in a varity of social/psycholgy journals for "scientific" evidence, if you would prefer a more academic understanding.

Truth B. Told said...

I don't disagree that some (or even many but certainly not all) black men prefer lighter skin women over darker skin woman.

But my point is so f__ing what? Many black women prefer men taller men than shorter men, men that have financial status over men with fewer means, men with muscles over men with a beer gut, etc. Both sides have their preferences.

Notice that the pics of the black men she posted were that of tall, handsome, and rich pro athletes and not of "average Jerome" black men. If these men were school teachers, or butchers, or garbage men, or any other honestly employed but not wealthy black man would these women care about who these men are with? I don't think so.

My problem with Sara and her ilk is when black women have their preferences, they are just trying to do the best by themselves, but when a black man dares has a preference and that preference dares not include someone like her then she has to resort to name calling and psuedo-psychoanalysis.

I mean how freaking arrogant can a person be to think that any man of her race must be "coonified" and brainwashed and jealous of white men just because he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life waking up to the stank of her nasty self.

Sasha said...

@Truth B. Told,

I don't follow anyone but myself/ my ideologies/etc., because I actually have a mind. I do agree that it is unfair to use the word "coonery" and such towards black men, because I know some great...matter of fact, wonderful black men. If it wasn't for a black man, I wouldn't be here, so I would never be in the position to downplay black men.

Having a preference isn't a bad thing...I prefer watching football than watching reality shows (who cares). However, it is a bad thing when your preference is rooted into an institution that was used to seperate and divide a race. It is a bad thing when, as Malcolm X said, this institution was used to embed "self-hatred and self-doubt." It's sad that the black community still has this mentality in their minds, and often, dark-skinned black women are left out. Dark-skinned black men don't have to worry about it as much as the women because so many women, of varous races, prefer dark-skinned black men...even black women prefer dark-skinned black men. The only races who prefer dark-skinned black women are races of men that aren't black.

Black men have held true to this preference for centuries, especially post Civil War...this isn't something new. While black women basically just wanted to be loved and accepted for who she was by her own race.

I date whomever I'm attracted to, and he is attracted to me. I will be honest and say, as a black woman (a dark-skinned one at that), it is harder for me to date black men because of my complexion. I'm in no way ugly (I've been Ms. Spelman which is a black college queen, as well as won other various beauty contests), and I'm intelligent (I'm working on my Ph.D. in neurochemistry)...I have no children, I stay fit, I have real hair/nails/etc., and black men still overlook me, often, because I'm not light-skinned. It is much easier for me to date men of other races because the flaws that they see don't include my skin color, and they appreciate it for it's richness...not to mention as I climb the academic ladder, it's hard for me to find a black man who isn't "scared" of an educated black woman, or to even find one who is attaining the same educational goals.

RainaHavock said...

@ Sasha: I understand where you coming from no you didn't have to refer to all those books because that was just a little nonchalant but that excuse about "Scared of an educated black woman" is so old. I'm not saying you are like this but I know women who are in the same boat you're in and they have terrible attitudes. Also I go to an HBCU like Spelman and still don't really see because I'm not light and still get asked out. My thing is this if you're a good person, I'm not saying a pushover, but a good person you it will come in time because sometimes it's your aura or personality that can turn people off. Now if I offend you let me know.

RainaHavock said...

Also I would like to add I know light skin BW who say the same thing so it cuts both ways

Sasha said...


No offense taken...I don't get offended by people expressing themselves, for I welcome debate anytime. The "scared of an educated black woman" maybe old, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. Just the other day, I went out on a date with a black man, and he told me I needed to get my head out of the books b/c higher education only means I'm money hungry. WTH?! I'm not saying all, but a majority of the black men I know are intimidated by an educated black woman.

I wouldn't say I'm a pushover, but I would say I don't settle for nothing less than I deserve, and in a relationship, I deserve someone who is "equally yolked" on various levels (i.e. mentally, spiritually, academically). If that comes off as a pushover, then we don't need to be together anyways because it won't work.

I'm in no rush to get married and settle down, but I would like to find someone who is willing to learn and grow with me until we both feel as though that time is proper. During the duration of my dating experience thus far, I can count the number of times on one hand, with fingers left over, that it was semi-successful with black men. I have decided to throw in the towel, and give up on my hopes of attaining a black man to be my lifetime partner.

RainaHavock said...

@ Sasha: Don't ever give up or throw in the towel. You never know what tomorrow will bring. You might just meet him tomorrow at the library or the coffee shop. I met my boyfriend at anime club meeting of all places! He's an engineering major at my university. But either way I hated when we shut ourselves up and say this will never happen. It might not be you might end up marrying an Asian man but still never close up. You keep it open love will find it's way in. ;)

Truth B. Told said...

To Sasha:

First congrats on your many successes. You sound like a firmly grounded person and I do wish you luck in finding someone to love you and treat you properly, which is the most important thing.

Secondly, all of our preferences are rooted in our present existence, whether they are football (an American sport) or colorism (also an American pastime).

You illustrate one of my main points. You said that you have your standards for a man and will settle for nothing less. Some of those standards are based on accomplishments that are meaningful in the Western White World. However, let a black man (especially a successful dark skinned black man) turn around and base some of what he wants in a woman on Westernized standards, he gets treated as if he has no idea of the history of this country and gets accused of being self-hating, or worse (from people like Evia).

Rocky said...

Welcome Sasha. Unlike the various IR bloggers out there who claim to be pro-black woman, I will not call you a "troll" or throw insults at you for having a difference of opinion. You are welcome here and I admire that you welcome debate.

However, let's be real here for a a Black woman (and I'm sure you can agree), I know how the Black community deals with color complex issues.

But as a BLACK MAN, would I not be in a better position to know the type of woman "most" BLACK MEN want? And even then, isn't it rather bold for one individual to make a conclusion about the individual thoughts of between 9 and 18 million men? All to commonly, women tend to feel that they know men better than men themselves and this results in them actually never knowing men.

Lets take a look at your statements. You say that "dark skinned Black women are at the lowest in our community". That's like saying that short men are the lowest on any community. One just as easily (or more easily) can say that MOST women don't wish to date men that are short or shorter than than them. But a single individual's physical characteristic doesn't make any one among "the lowest" in a community and to say so is a gross exaggeration. Are women with flat butts the lowest? Are women with flat chests the lowest. Are women who are overweight the lowest? One's individual personal preferences in dating is not belittling.

Also, how the media represents black women is a moot point since the media is white dominated and caters to a white audience. The media portrayals of black women represent the type of black women that whites prefer to see. Maybe those particular white men who prefer or have a fetish for black women (less than 1% of white men) tend to find darker black women more appealing, yet the average white person sees the lighter black woman with straighter hair as more appealing. Only from white people have I heard the statement that "mixed couples have pretty children".

As far as scientific research and articles, those simply discuss the phenomenon of colorism and the history of it, yet none verifies your claim of "MOST black men". The closest research to doing this involve surveys and such surveys conclude that while a significant number of black men prefer lighter skinned black women, the larger number express no preference.

Personally, I know numerous dark skinned black women who are married to black men. I know some who have married, divorced and remarried. I have generally not seen this lonely dark skinned black woman who is unwanted by black men. They may not generally have the dating advantage of lighter skinned women, but not having an advantage does not equate to being discarded.

Dark-skinned black men don't have to worry about it as much as the women because so many women, of varous races, prefer dark-skinned black men...even black women prefer dark-skinned black men.

I'm a light skinned black man. Based on what you say, should I complain and start a blog about how light skinned brothas are discriminated against and are the lowest in the black community? And even you admit that light skinned black men are more open to darker skinned black women, thus based on your statements, the very black men most open to dark skinned women are discriminated against in favor of darker skinned black men. Why do Evia, Halima, Sarah, etc. not include light skinned black men as an option for black women? Why do they go straight for white?

The "scared of an educated black woman" maybe old, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Doesn't mean that it is valid. I can think of more than enough examples of black men marrying educated black women. I think that many black women confuse fear of an educated black woman with fear of the arrogance often associated with the educated black woman.

One thing to note is that more than not, colorism has been taught to black men by their mothers and the women around them. The most criticism I have received for dating dark skinned women has come from black female relatives and close friends (some of whom are themselves dark).

During the duration of my dating experience thus far, I can count the number of times on one hand, with fingers left over, that it was semi-successful with black men.

And is that automatically their fault? Could it be that it is locked in your mind that it will not workout with a black man and you make your expectations reality? I have seen throughout my life how dark skinned black women undermine relationships due to their paranoia over their skin color.

RainaHavock said...

Those are excellent points Rocky.

Sasha said...

@Truth B. Told: I don't think being educated, loving, supportive, understanding, employed, spiritually grounded Westernized ideologies. These ideologies are world wide, but I think in America, they aren't valued so much by black men vs. white men (give or take spiritually grounded, for I find black men have that over white men). Of course, I know this doesn't apply to all men, but this is just average. If a man doesn't have that, then I don't want him.

@Rocky: As a black woman who grew up around 4 black men (my brothers), as well as being surrounded around uncles (a plethora of them), I think I'm just as informative as you. Also, as a black woman, who is dark-skinned, that makes me directly involved, for I'm the one that is either chosen or not (most of the time, not by black men unless my hair is at least mid way down my back). I never said, all black men...of course, I can't speak for all black men, and I would hope you think more of my intelligence to assume I do. when I speak, I speak of average. How can I speak upon this? Well, not only have I performed scientific research on color complex issues, there is scientific research out there performed by other professional researchers (i.e. ones with Ph.D.s) who have studied this, and it comes out just the same. I could email you a copy of my research as well as other peoples research. Also, the methodology wasn't just surveys...they have also been able to incorporate brain wave scanning to check for preferred images.

Dark-skinned women are the lowest in the rankings, let's be serious. Yes, there isn't anything wrong with wanting one over the other, but there is something wrong when this desire is deeply rooted in a slave institution. Short men weren't denied acceptance into colleges, organizations, etc., but dark-skinned people were. Women with flat butts weren't made to feel "less than," but dark-skinned people were (and still are). A recent (key word: recent) study, performed by Harvard University, showed that light-skinned blacks have a better chance to receive a job offer than dark-skinned blacks, and it's worse for women. Hmmm, I wonder why? I wonder where this reason came from?

The media isn't only controlled by, I have friends and family who work in the entertainment industry, and I've heard of horror stories of how blacks treat other blacks.

...1%...hmmm...really, I think otherwise...

About you starting a blog about light-skinned men...honey, you can start whatever you's freewill.

I never mentioned anything about light-skinned men, so I don't know where that statment came from that you made. I have no idea why they go for just white...all I know is about me and my experience.

Arrogance of an educated black woman? I think this "arrogance" is the black man's way of saying, "I'm upset that I don't have what you have."

It could be due to me...I'm an educated, goal-orientated woman who is proud of her accomplishments. I would rather read then go to the club; I enjoy talking about a variety of subjects rather than thinking inside the box; I like music that includes rock n roll as well as r&b. I don't settle for anything in life, and I would want my partner to do the same. I don't go into a dating situation with "baggage" especially about my skin complexion. It's never a problem until someone else points it out...someone who is black (sad to say). I love my rich, milk chocolate skin...if he doesn't, so be it. Now, if that makes me "arrogant" or a problem for black men, then by all means, they are free to date other women, for I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Anonymous said...

I would like to say first off that NO ONE IS "LESS" of a person because he or she is darker than anyone else. So, what if someone is dark. It doesn't mean you get second best. I am a fair toned sista and I have dark skinned cousins and friends that are beautiful. People have told me i am "light skinned" i see myself as "medium brown". I find it sad when I hear dark skinned people being talked about or treated less and sometimes by their own race. Sasha,
you suggested someone read this book*"Don't Play In The Sun: One Woman's Journey Through The Color Complex"
I have not read the book, but i went to Amazon and look the contents of the book. Exactly what I expected a dark skin lady being critisize about her skin tone. Why can't people get over making differences? I have had interraccial rtlships in the past with white men. For the most part I think people are slowly but surely accepting differences. Rather you are; dark skined, a BW that dates a white man, or a black man dating a white woman. If people are not accepting this they need to hop on the train. Sadly Saha, I have to agree with one author here: Not all black men perfer light (or white) skin people (woman). Sorry if you feel overlooked by black men that you were interested in dating...If they (or anyone else) overlooks you b/c of your skin color...their loss ot yours. I sense a lot of hurt in some of your post...The one back guy you went out with was just silly... Seriously, do you think all black guys want you to "get your head out of the books"? No, that was just what HE WAS FEELING! How can one man represent the whole male population? He can not...That is what he was feeling. He felt threatened because you were sucessful, beautiful and smart... When people speak in the second person such as "men or brotha's don't want you to be that way' you can rest assure it is coming from them alone and not the men he calls himself "representing". That is their true feelings and they are too cowardly to tell you what they feel. He didn't want to tell you what a great lady you are.Trust me, not all black men are that way.

JDR said...

Doesn't mean that it is valid. I can think of more than enough examples of black men marrying educated black women. I think that many black women confuse fear of an educated black woman with fear of the arrogance often associated with the educated black woman.


Very funny, very true, but I think it applies to all women.


Now I find what you are arguing here to contradictory for a couple of reasons. First like you said, it's difficult to say who someone is attracted to by just looking at them. Or what their preference is for that matter. Which makes it hard to say Black guys like ... or White guys like... since we are dealing at a micro level here. Also, a macro view has to many factors to be taken with any grain of salt in a micro situation, such as life.

I will agree with you that some female blogger do practice double standards, but when you say stuff like:

"Maybe those particular white men who prefer or have a fetish for black women (less than 1% of white men) tend to find darker black women more appealing, yet the average white person sees the lighter black woman with straighter hair as more appealing."

you are doing the same thing and generalizing, which is almost no better. Not to mention, the use of the word fetish bring out a connotation of a sickness or a mental disease. Now I have a preference for girls with asses, which generally tends to be black. But would you assume that I had preference for black women based on just appearance, which makes my point that it's pointless to assume a preconceived notion of what you want, when you don't honestly know what you want.

I completely agree with you on the notion of tall, short, six pack, beer gut, rich, poor, etc. There are many more variables that concludes a persons desirability. Shit my mind is not thinking coherent thoughts right now, but I got more to say on this.

Sasha said...

As stated before, I don't assume all black men are like that...I didn't say all black men had the same ideologies.

...I mentioned that in one of my replies...

I'm speaking from MY experience and from what I know; also from the research that I've done or that I know of...I mentioned that too in one of my replies.

I don't think my replies come from a place of pain; it comes from reality. It maybe a messed up notion to think people have a mentality like this, but don't feel sorry for me...feel sorry for them

Rocky said...

you are doing the same thing and generalizing, which is almost no better.

I disagree. A generalization has nothing to do with holding double standards. Likewise, generalizations are not necessarily bad as long as they are not based on insufficient evidence.

Anonymous said...

I am going to keep this short, sweet, and to the point.

I am a dark skin brother, and I get NO love from dark skin Black women.However, I did get my feelings hurt by dark skin Black women on several occasions.

I am sick and tired of dark skin Black woman crying like sorry ass babies about not being wanted by Black men.

I don't want to talk to a dark skin Black women, because nine times out of ten, they are going to stand me up when it comes to a date. That is why I choose to be in the company of light skin or biracial Black women.

Dark skin Black women are full of bird crap. They are the ones who reject Black men based on their skin color.

Get your facts straight Sara and anyone else who thinks like her.

SmartBlkGirl said...

You guys are a joke!!! Warren G? how many same colar black couples do u have compared to all th IR's on Sara's and Zabeth and all thse sites. Date who u want but admit there is a colar problem!!

Rocky said...

You guys are a joke!!! Warren G? how many same colar black couples do u have compared to all th IR's on Sara's and Zabeth and all thse sites. Date who u want but admit there is a colar problem!!

What's wrong with Warren G? He's a wealthy black man. If anyone is a joke, it is you. I can find far more same colored couples than any of you can find IR couples. You need to get real.

Anonymous said...

Hey folks, what's up? I am a 27 y/o sister and recent graduate of a Masters program here in NYC. I have heard different perspectives on this topic and will put another twist on it.
The black man tends to be very Eurocentric in what he finds beautiful….PERIOD.
However, this issue embraces not only skin, but other aspects as well.
And, in worse cases, such preference issues cause a great amount of animosity amongst lighter and darker women.

I am an African American woman with very dark skin (about Isaiah Washington’s color) and had locs for 9 years. I have now my hair cut very low, maintaining my natural style. I have been natural since the age of 7 and wore this same low natural cut in high school (and got tortured for it.) I have NEVER had a weave in my entire life; in being raised by an Afro-Caribbean mother who is to say the least, VERY Afro-centric.

In placing it all together, Black men prefer lighter skinned women, PERIOD. And, as with most discussion about this in our community, the darker skinned woman’s pain is being swept under the rug. Lighter skinned women are worshiped in the black community and would NEVER be abused or disrespected as much as the darker skinned women.
I’ve seen situations where the darker sister was prettier and had a nicer attitude and spirit (which is most important in choosing any woman regardless), but the lighter sister still gets more attention from brothers. I mean, even if a brother is upset with me for anything as small as letting him know that I can't give him my number because I'm in a relationship, the first thing he goes after is: 'You tar baby bitch' or 'You nappy headed hoe.'
Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t advertise this or walk up to a brother and make nasty comments. I’ve just silently walked away from the possibility of what my mother taught me was my supposed destiny of ‘black love’. My walking away from brothers is something that my mother and I disagree on. She always raised me that 'the blacker the better' and that my color was beautiful. But, at the end of the day, I can't marry my mama. (LOL!)
And, what’s sad is that I’ll go to mixed events, or even events with Black and Latino groups and sit near the brothers and a Latino man will approach me and ask me to dance first.
It’s to point where I went to an interracial dinner date and this light skinned sister was sitting at a table across from us and kept going off about ‘Why she with him? I don’t get it. She’s so Nubian. What the fuck is she doing?’
When my date went to the restroom, I turned to her and said, ‘Well, Ms. Thang…you don’t understand because being that you’re lighter than a pumpkin, black men would line up for the opportunity to lick your feet. Please mind your damn business.’ She turned away with an attitude, but said nothing else.

Anonymous said...

(comment cont'd)

Now, I say this as a natural black woman who has been natural since childhood, hair also plays a major factor in this. As I said before, Black men for the most part, do not embrace darker sisters; but it’s even worse if she's natural as well. If a sister is dark skinned and gets brotherly love, her weave is from here to the moon. And, she is so insecure about her skin to where she will openly say, ‘Girl, I’m already dark. I can’t be nappy headed too.’

Regarding sisters spreading ‘what’s not true on the internet’, I have to say my dear black brothers, that there is a website administered by a Swedish man and what he finds beautiful in the black woman, and 90% of the sisters that he talks about or has photos of are DARK SKINNED, MANY OF THEM BEING AFRICAN. And, these sisters are models, never half naked, etc.
Now, I scratched my head for two reasons:
-I love the site because it’s not sleazy and shows sisters in a beautiful light. But, what saddened me is those darker skinned black women were getting love from the other side, a SWEDISH MAN, NOT A BROTHER. Damn, why couldn’t a brother have a blog like that? I’ve been to other “Black is Beautiful” blogs run by brothers and the sisters there are Beyonce’s complexion and lighter. Straight up!
That’s real!

Well, lots of love and Blessings for this New Year!!